Good morning all
May I just ask a couple of clarifying questions regarding printing.
Are you happy with the managed print service and everything that it includes, or does this cause issues?
You mention stand alone IP printers, is this common practice and does this also cause issues.
Many thanks in advance
Kind regards
Leigh
-----Original Message-----
From: physics-departmental-computing-bounces@imperial.ac.uk <physics-departmental-computing-bounces@imperial.ac.uk> On Behalf Of David Colling
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 8:37 AM
To: Jaffe, Andrew H <a.jaffe@imperial.ac.uk>
Cc: Staffell, Iain L <i.staffell@imperial.ac.uk>; Sternberg, Michael J E <m.sternberg@imperial.ac.uk>; Buchaca-Domingo, Ester <e.buchaca-domingo@imperial.ac.uk>; Bearpark, Michael J <m.bearpark@imperial.ac.uk>; Bryce, Craig T <c.bryce@imperial.ac.uk>; Cucinotta,
Clotilde <c.cucinotta@imperial.ac.uk>; Pearse, Will <will.pearse@imperial.ac.uk>; David Colling <david.colling@gmail.com>; Michalickova, Katerina <k.michalickova@imperial.ac.uk>; Keaveny, Eric E <e.keaveny@imperial.ac.uk>; physics-departmental-computing <physics-departmental-computing@imperial.ac.uk>;
French, Paul (PHOT) M W <paul.french@imperial.ac.uk>; Bresme, Fernando <f.bresme@imperial.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Physics-Departmental-Computing] Services needed on a research computing desktop and laptop
Indeed ...
On 29/11/2022 08:21, Jaffe, Andrew H wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> One more service occurs to me (as I am in at 8am to prepare for a 9am and need hardcopies): printing. Right now, some of our printers are part of the “ICT print service” and some are stand-alone IP printers.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>> On 27 Nov 2022, at 17:32, David Colling <d.colling@imperial.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> J believe that it is ...
>>
>> On 23/11/2022 18:14, andy thomas wrote:
>>> Is the Nov 30th meeting actually going ahead? There's a UCU/Unite/Unison joint strike planned for IC that day.
>>> Andy
>>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2022, Bantges, Richard J wrote:
>>>>
>>>> David – if time permits, I wonder if it would be more efficient to
>>>> have a short Teams meeting in the next few days, prior to your
>>>> meeting on the 30th, to make sure we have the correct focus. I’m
>>>> not sure “Services” = “Software packages” but clearly this is how
>>>> it is being interpreted – and if this is what is required, then wow what a task to collate all the information.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Will Pearse <will.pearse@imperial.ac.uk>
>>>> Sent: 23 November 2022 17:06
>>>> To: Colling, David J <d.colling@imperial.ac.uk>; Bantges, Richard J
>>>> <r.bantges@imperial.ac.uk>; Thomas, Andy D
>>>> <andy.thomas@imperial.ac.uk>
>>>> Cc: Bresme, Fernando <f.bresme@imperial.ac.uk>; French, Paul (PHOT)
>>>> M W <paul.french@imperial.ac.uk>; Keaveny, Eric E
>>>> <e.keaveny@imperial.ac.uk>; Sternberg, Michael J E
>>>> <m.sternberg@imperial.ac.uk>; Staffell, Iain L
>>>> <i.staffell@imperial.ac.uk>; Pengelly, Ellen
>>>> <e.pengelly@imperial.ac.uk>; Buchaca-Domingo, Ester
>>>> <e.buchaca-domingo@imperial.ac.uk>; Michalickova, Katerina
>>>> <k.michalickova@imperial.ac.uk>; physics-departmental-computing
>>>> <physics-departmental-computing@imperial.ac.uk>; Bryce, Craig T
>>>> <c.bryce@imperial.ac.uk>; Bearpark, Michael J
>>>> <m.bearpark@imperial.ac.uk>; Cucinotta, Clotilde
>>>> <c.cucinotta@imperial.ac.uk>; David Colling
>>>> <david.colling@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Physics-Departmental-Computing] Services needed on a
>>>> research computing desktop and laptop
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I do hear what you're saying, and perhaps I am missing something
>>>> here, but if I were to list every program that a member of my lab
>>>> uses as part of their research the list would be long and
>>>> ever-growing. Off the top of my head, today someone in my lab will have used:
>>>>
>>>> * GRASS
>>>> * QGIS
>>>> * ArcGIS
>>>> * Libre Office
>>>> + Word equivalent
>>>> + Excel equivalent
>>>> + Powerpoint equivalent
>>>> * Office 365
>>>> + ...as above
>>>> * R
>>>> * Python
>>>> * Ruby
>>>> * Julia
>>>> * RAxML
>>>> * BEAST
>>>> * MrBayes
>>>> * WoK cloud API
>>>> * Google Maps API
>>>> * Twitter API (...for how much longer I don't know :p)
>>>> * AREAData automated build and distribution API we manage
>>>> * Tyrell (in-house automation and COVID data API)
>>>> * Raven bioacoustics data
>>>> * Pendant Loggers software
>>>>
>>>> ...I could keep going, I'm sure you see the point I'm trying to
>>>> make. Some of these have exposed APIs and ports, some of them are
>>>> 'just' programs that we need to be able to install. You might think
>>>> the list would be smaller for people in DoLS who are less
>>>> computational than my lab, but actually the problem would be worse
>>>> because they use lots of bespoke software for weird bits of kit
>>>> (DNA sequencers, microclimate loggers, bioacoustic sensors, ...).
>>>>
>>>> Fundamentally, I worry the tail may be wagging the dog here. If I
>>>> were to put this provocatively, and I think unfairly but hopefully
>>>> by reducing to the absurd I can make my point clearer, why should
>>>> we have to demonstrate that our research is no danger to systems
>>>> that are set up to support our research?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Measuring phylogenetic structure? Try install.packages('pez')
>>>>
>>>> Will Pearse (pearselab.com) (he/him) Senior Lecturer, Imperial
>>>> College London Department of Life Sciences LGBTQ+ champion
>>>>
>>>> On 23/11/2022 16:14, David Colling wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Will,
>>>>
>>>> To some extent I agree with you, but I can quite imagine that
>>>> there are plenty of college systems that I have never heard of
>>>> that I don't need access to. I have no idea what systems HR use
>>>> (and don't want to know) but I do know that I have never needed
>>>> access to them. So if we can set up a list of what we do need
>>>> and show that we are no danger to any central systems then I
>>>> don't see how they can complain.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> david
>>>>
>>>> On 23/11/2022 14:25, Will Pearse wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I think we should compile a list of what people
>>>> /shouldn't/ be able to do on research computers
>>>> rather than what they /should/. I think such a list
>>>> would be much shorter, and doing the opposite will
>>>> massively hinder research. I think this is similar
>>>> to what others have proposed below.
>>>>
>>>> Pragmatically, if ICT remove user control over the
>>>> machines the users will jailbreak them to do their
>>>> research. That would presumably be the worst case
>>>> scenario from the perspective of security, and so I
>>>> think it's in everyone's interests to give people
>>>> control of their own computers.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Measuring phylogenetic structure? Try
>>>> install.packages('pez')
>>>>
>>>> Will Pearse (pearselab.com) <
http://pearselab.com/>
>>>> (he/him)
>>>> Senior Lecturer, Imperial College London
>>>> Department of Life Sciences LGBTQ+ champion
>>>> On 23/11/2022 11:20, Bantges, Richard J wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andy, ( & David)
>>>>
>>>> The College's Unified Access is another
>>>> angle perhaps to consider for Imperial
>>>> College users. I'm not qualified to
>>>> comment how robust that is, but that
>>>> opens up the entire Imperial College
>>>> network from outside of the College,
>>>> providing access to mapped network
>>>> drives, shared windows directories and
>>>> SSH access to all of our servers. We
>>>> still maintain a couple of externally
>>>> visible Linux SSH servers comparable to
>>>> your "bastion" hosts (running fail2ban,
>>>> etc.) to allow collaborators external to
>>>> the College to access some of our
>>>> systems / data albeit with restricted
>>>> privileges.
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to understand the scope /
>>>> reach of ICT's aim here. I'd imagine for
>>>> it to be effective, as any changes will
>>>> only be as good as the weakest link,
>>>> it'll be all encompassing - i.e.
>>>> anything connected to the Imperial
>>>> College network is to be scrutinised. I
>>>> recall many years ago a printer being
>>>> "hacked" and was printing reams of
>>>> rubbish until it was fixed..
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Thomas, Andy
>>>> D<andy.thomas@imperial.ac.uk> Sent: 23
>>>> November 2022 11:02
>>>> To: Colling, David
>>>> J<d.colling@imperial.ac.uk>
>>>> Cc: Bresme,
>>>> Fernando<f.bresme@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> French, Paul (PHOT) M
>>>> W<paul.french@imperial.ac.uk>; Keaveny,
>>>> Eric E<e.keaveny@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Sternberg, Michael J
>>>> E<m.sternberg@imperial.ac.uk>; Staffell,
>>>> Iain L<i.staffell@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Pengelly,
>>>> Ellen<e.pengelly@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Buchaca-Domingo,
>>>> Ester<e.buchaca-domingo@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Bantges, Richard
>>>> J<r.bantges@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Michalickova,
>>>> Katerina<k.michalickova@imperial.ac.uk>;physics-departmental-computing<physics-departmental-computing@imperial.ac.u
>>>> k>; Bryce, Craig
>>>> T<c.bryce@imperial.ac.uk>; Bearpark,
>>>> Michael J<m.bearpark@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Cucinotta,
>>>> Clotilde<c.cucinotta@imperial.ac.uk>;
>>>> Pearse,
>>>> Will<will.pearse@imperial.ac.uk>; David
>>>> Colling<david.colling@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re:
>>>> [Physics-Departmental-Computing]
>>>> Services needed on a research computing
>>>> desktop and laptop
>>>>
>>>> In CMTH access to all internal systems
>>>> in the CMTH cluster from other parts of
>>>> the College network, for example others
>>>> parts of Physics, Maths, etc, and from
>>>> outside the College is only possible via
>>>> 3 "bastion" hosts which act as firewalls
>>>> with in-bound ssh being the only service
>>>> exposed to the network. They also run
>>>> fail2ban to discourage repeated break-in
>>>> attempts and these systems are kept up
>>>> to date with security patches.
>>>>
>>>> In Maths, the situation is rather
>>>> different - while nearly all systems are
>>>> not directly accessible from outside
>>>> College, they are accessible from other
>>>> depts in College since their users often
>>>> use Maths facilities. For access from
>>>> outside, Maths has 3 ssh gateways
>>>> similar to CMTH & running fail2ban and
>>>> they accept external connections on the
>>>> non-standard port 10022. Also users
>>>> being what they are - especially UGs and
>>>> MSc students who tend to hate the CLI
>>>> and demand GUI coding interfaces such as
>>>> Jupyter Notebook, R Studio server,
>>>> VScode, Spyder 5, PySpark, etc, - we
>>>> have a few dedicated compute servers
>>>> that support direct ssh connections from
>>>> outside College and users working
>>>> remotely can then use ssh port
>>>> forwarding and/or tunnelling to run GUI
>>>> programming environments from home,
>>>> halls of residence, etc over ssh without
>>>> having to rely on the College VPN
>>>> services which don't work for many Mac
>>>> users (eg, MSc students based in China
>>>> often find port 1194 used by OpenVPN is
>>>> blocked by "state actors"). For an
>>>> example of the documentation available
>>>> for MSc students in the Stats section on
>>>> hoe to do this,
>>>>
>>>> seehttps://sysnews.ma.ic.ac.uk/stats/MSc_compute_servers.html#GUI_s
>>>> etup
>>>>
>>>> So in reality, ssh is the Swiss army
>>>> knife for a lot of research users ;)
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2022, David Colling
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andy,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for these. ssh access
>>>> to remote servers is not
>>>> controversial,
>>>> but if you want ssh access
>>>> to your machines in college,
>>>> how do you
>>>> ensure that your machines
>>>> are fully patched and not
>>>> providing a way into college
>>>> for hackers?
>>>> Or rather how do you
>>>> persuade ICT that this is
>>>> the case?
>>>>
>>>> In my group we have a team
>>>> of three people who manage
>>>> things like this
>>>> (along with much much more)
>>>> and these people are
>>>> sufficiently
>>>> respected and reliable for
>>>> ICT to trust them.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> david
>>>>
>>>> On 22/11/2022 23:45, andy
>>>> thomas wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A plan by the
>>>> Firedrake
>>>> software
>>>> development
>>>> group in Maths
>>>> to use
>>>> four rackmounted
>>>> Mac Minis in a
>>>> build farm to
>>>> help develop a
>>>> Mac
>>>> version of this
>>>> software has
>>>> been completely
>>>> scuppered to
>>>> date by
>>>> ICT's insistence
>>>> that all Macs -
>>>> even those used
>>>> as servers only
>>>> accessible via
>>>> ssh on isolated
>>>> networks not
>>>> connected to any
>>>> College
>>>> network - must
>>>> be
>>>> remote-managed
>>>> by ICT via Apple
>>>> DEP. With
>>>> hindsight
>>>> Maths should
>>>> have bought
>>>> these Macs from,
>>>> say, PC World in
>>>> Kens High St,
>>>> not through an
>>>> "authorised
>>>> Apple dealer".
>>>>
>>>> Regarding
>>>> services - and
>>>> speaking for
>>>> both the Maths
>>>> dept and the
>>>> Condensed Matter
>>>> Theory group in
>>>> Physics (CMTH) -
>>>> almost all these
>>>> research users
>>>> use Linux or Mac
>>>> desktop/laptop
>>>> systems for whom
>>>> the
>>>> most important
>>>> services are ssh
>>>> (including
>>>> services that
>>>> rely on ssh
>>>> such as scp &
>>>> sftp) and
>>>> https-based
>>>> network
>>>> connectivity.
>>>> Most
>>>> Linux/Mac
>>>> applications use
>>>> (or can easily
>>>> be configured to
>>>> use) ssh &
>>>> https transports
>>>> and ssh itself
>>>> can also be used
>>>> to create VPNs,
>>>> using its
>>>> tunneling & port
>>>> forwarding
>>>> features.
>>>> Access via ssh
>>>> to external
>>>> services,
>>>> institutions,
>>>> etc is vital for
>>>> these users as
>>>> is the ability
>>>> to use ssh for
>>>> remote access
>>>> into Maths
>>>> & CMTH systems.
>>>>
>>>> Maths research
>>>> IT is
>>>> server-based &
>>>> independent of
>>>> central ICT
>>>> services
>>>> although for
>>>> backwards
>>>> compatability,
>>>> login services
>>>> on a
>>>> few systems do
>>>> access a subset
>>>> of the College
>>>> user account
>>>> authentication
>>>> maps via the
>>>> central LDAP
>>>> servers and
>>>> central ICNFS
>>>> home directory
>>>> storage is used
>>>> by some users
>>>> with low storage
>>>> space
>>>> requirements. On
>>>> the other hand,
>>>> the
>>>> workstation-based
>>>> CMTH cluster
>>>> is entirely
>>>> independent of
>>>> ICT with its own
>>>> LDAP and user
>>>> storage servers.
>>>>
>>>> With
>>>> departmental
>>>> facilities like
>>>> these, many
>>>> research users
>>>> have no
>>>> real need to use
>>>> central services
>>>> other than the
>>>> network and DNS
>>>> look-up servers,
>>>> and there should
>>>> be no need for
>>>> research systems
>>>> to
>>>> be policed in
>>>> the way ICT
>>>> envisage. The
>>>> College has a
>>>> perimeter
>>>> firewall and ICT
>>>> are at liberty
>>>> to run
>>>> penetration/security
>>>> tests on
>>>> any systems they
>>>> are unhappy
>>>> about.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 Nov
>>>> 2022, David
>>>> Colling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I am
>>>> sending
>>>> this
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> Physics
>>>> Departmental
>>>> Computing
>>>> Committee
>>>> and
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> departmental
>>>> members
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> FRCC
>>>> so
>>>> that
>>>> they
>>>> can
>>>> gather
>>>> information
>>>> from
>>>> their
>>>> departments.
>>>>
>>>> As
>>>> some
>>>> of
>>>> you
>>>> know
>>>> ICT
>>>> are
>>>> increasingly
>>>> confining
>>>> what
>>>> people
>>>> can
>>>> do
>>>> on
>>>> college
>>>> machines,
>>>> even
>>>> those
>>>> bought
>>>> on
>>>> research
>>>> grants
>>>> and
>>>> used
>>>> by
>>>> individual
>>>> researchers.
>>>> This
>>>> has
>>>> been
>>>> most
>>>> noticed
>>>> by
>>>> the
>>>> change
>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>> management
>>>> of
>>>> Macs.
>>>> In
>>>> my
>>>> years
>>>> involved
>>>> in
>>>> departmental
>>>> computing,
>>>> no
>>>> issue
>>>> has
>>>> annoyed
>>>> more
>>>> people.
>>>> Behind
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> the
>>>> increased
>>>> number
>>>> of
>>>> attacks
>>>> on
>>>> university
>>>> computing
>>>> system
>>>> which
>>>> is
>>>> visible
>>>> both
>>>> at
>>>> Imperial
>>>> and
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>> Some
>>>> universities
>>>> have
>>>> been
>>>> badly
>>>> hit
>>>> and
>>>> have
>>>> ended
>>>> up
>>>> paying
>>>> £Ms
>>>> to
>>>> ransomware
>>>> attackers.
>>>> Apparently
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> one
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> things
>>>> that
>>>> keeps
>>>> our
>>>> President
>>>> awake
>>>> at
>>>> night.
>>>> This
>>>> is
>>>> clearly
>>>> a
>>>> threat
>>>> that
>>>> we
>>>> have
>>>> to
>>>> take
>>>> seriously,
>>>> but
>>>> it
>>>> is
>>>> also
>>>> not
>>>> clear
>>>> how
>>>> much
>>>> damage
>>>> could
>>>> be
>>>> done
>>>> to
>>>> college
>>>> systems
>>>> by a
>>>> laptop
>>>> or
>>>> desktop
>>>> used
>>>> by a
>>>> single
>>>> (or
>>>> team
>>>> of)
>>>> researcher(s).
>>>>
>>>> In
>>>> discussions
>>>> with
>>>> ICT
>>>> the
>>>> most
>>>> sensible
>>>> approach
>>>> seems
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> that
>>>> we
>>>> define
>>>> a
>>>> class
>>>> of
>>>> machine
>>>> that
>>>> is a
>>>> research
>>>> desktop
>>>> or
>>>> laptop
>>>> that
>>>> ICT
>>>> don't
>>>> manage
>>>> but
>>>> which
>>>> also
>>>> has
>>>> limited
>>>> access
>>>> to
>>>> college
>>>> central
>>>> systems.
>>>> Most
>>>> of
>>>> us
>>>> have
>>>> no
>>>> reason
>>>> to
>>>> access
>>>> payroll
>>>> (say)
>>>> and
>>>> in
>>>> fact
>>>> would
>>>> view
>>>> it
>>>> as a
>>>> security
>>>> breach
>>>> if
>>>> we
>>>> could.
>>>> We
>>>> have
>>>> a
>>>> meeting
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> 30th
>>>> November
>>>> where
>>>> we
>>>> will
>>>> discuss
>>>> this
>>>> proposed
>>>> set
>>>> up.
>>>> What
>>>> I
>>>> need
>>>> going
>>>> into
>>>> is
>>>> the
>>>> list
>>>> of
>>>> services
>>>> that
>>>> researchers
>>>> would
>>>> need
>>>> access
>>>> to
>>>> from
>>>> these
>>>> research
>>>> machines,
>>>> how
>>>> that
>>>> access
>>>> would
>>>> them
>>>> +
>>>> any
>>>> other
>>>> thoughts/comments.
>>>> For
>>>> example
>>>> the
>>>> sort
>>>> of
>>>> thing
>>>> that
>>>> occurred
>>>> to
>>>> me
>>>> are:
>>>>
>>>> service:
>>>> Office365
>>>> (including
>>>> sharepoint,
>>>> email,
>>>> OneDrive
>>>> teams
>>>> etc)
>>>> Access:
>>>> Is
>>>> access
>>>> through
>>>> the
>>>> secure
>>>> web
>>>> portal
>>>> enough
>>>> for
>>>> most
>>>> of
>>>> these
>>>> plus
>>>> a
>>>> mail
>>>> client
>>>> providing
>>>> secure
>>>> access
>>>> the
>>>> the
>>>> email.
>>>>
>>>> [I
>>>> use
>>>> Office365
>>>> much
>>>> less
>>>> than
>>>> almost
>>>> anybody
>>>> to
>>>> whom
>>>> this
>>>> email
>>>> is
>>>> going
>>>> so
>>>> am
>>>> the
>>>> least
>>>> qualified
>>>> to
>>>> answer
>>>> this
>>>> one]
>>>>
>>>> Service:
>>>> ICIS
>>>> (Payslips,
>>>> expenses
>>>> claims
>>>> etc)
>>>> Access:
>>>> Secure
>>>> web
>>>> access
>>>> should
>>>> be
>>>> enough.
>>>>
>>>> Service:
>>>> Starfish
>>>> Access:
>>>> Secure
>>>> web
>>>> access
>>>> is
>>>> sufficient.
>>>>
>>>> What
>>>> other
>>>> services
>>>> are
>>>> needed
>>>> and
>>>> how?
>>>>
>>>> Other
>>>> comments:
>>>>
>>>> - I
>>>> don't
>>>> think
>>>> that
>>>> it
>>>> is
>>>> unreasonable
>>>> to
>>>> have
>>>> a
>>>> requirement
>>>> that
>>>> the
>>>> disks
>>>> of
>>>> all
>>>> research
>>>> laptops
>>>> are
>>>> encrypted
>>>> in
>>>> case
>>>> they
>>>> are
>>>> lost
>>>> when
>>>> travelling.
>>>> The
>>>> performance
>>>> hit
>>>> is
>>>> minimal
>>>> and
>>>> if
>>>> that
>>>> is
>>>> important
>>>> then
>>>> running
>>>> on a
>>>> laptop
>>>> might
>>>> not
>>>> be
>>>> ideal.
>>>>
>>>> So
>>>> please
>>>> do
>>>> send
>>>> me
>>>> your
>>>> thoughts
>>>> (on
>>>> services
>>>> mainly)
>>>> and
>>>> comments.
>>>> For
>>>> once
>>>> I
>>>> would
>>>> not
>>>> be
>>>> against
>>>> you
>>>> sending
>>>> to
>>>> everybody
>>>> as I
>>>> would
>>>> welcome
>>>> debate
>>>> on
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> david
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Physics-Departmental-Computing
>>>> mailing
>>>> list
>>>> Physics-Departmental-Computing@imperial.ac.uk
>>>>
https://mailman.ic.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/physics-departmental-compu
>>>> ting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> ing
>
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